Posts by Cold Steel

6

feeling blue about loss of faith?Grimly holding on in the face of your mortality?Dust that sings

by Diogenesister in

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as i am aware a lot of posters are feeling down or grieving the certainties lost when their faith is revealed as nothing but the stories of mortal men...i am posting one of my favourite youtubers, philhellenes who, like the ancients you studied, contemplates that sense of awe that he is indeed fearfully and wonderfully made...and when faced with the inevitability of mortality he imagines the plight of the mayfly...and wonders" would it be cruel to tell an adult mayfly that it only has that afternoon to live...would it still fly as far and as high as it could?might it fly further and higher than usual?or would it forget about it's wings and sit on the water, head bowed, sufficiently traumatised to invent religion?".

we are privileged that after millennia we are some of the first life forms to know exactly how we came to be..and what we are made of ...and if that isnt miraculously awe inspiring,i don't know what is.

Cold Steel

Yes, but why don't they even claim to be a church? Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom and said that what he bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven and vice versa. That's why baptism works and excommunication was considered as a major threat to one's salvation. If the GB doesn't have these keys, who cares what they do? If you're disfellowshiped, big deal. No keys, no authority! YAWEH won't recognize anything the Society does if there are no keys. And if the Society has those keys, where did it get them? How were they conferred and by whom? If it doesn't need them, then why did the ancient church need them? It's something that I've never seen addressed. People say, if poor Uncle Ebert isn't reinstated, Jehovah will destroy him at Armageddon! But even if Ebert dies, Jehovah will resurrect him, then destroy him. Why? Because he was cut off by the Society. Or do I have it wrong?

The Society definitely has its own keys. It can turn family against family, friends against friends. It can prevent marriages, control what one reads, what one believes, says and even the medical attention one receives. It has destroyed careers by its poor counsel, misled people about prophecy, corrupted marriages and has come between parents and their children. These are all keys of its own making, all made of tin and all self assumed. Otherwise, if it had the Keys given to Peter and the Twelve, they owe it to everyone to explain how they got them. And if they don't, they should explain why they don't need them.

It would be great if someone who's been active in the Society could tell me why the Society would be hesitant to classify itself as a church? If it isn't the church that Jesus built, just exactly what is it? Does it consider itself the Kingdom of God as in "thy Kingdom come...."?

6

feeling blue about loss of faith?Grimly holding on in the face of your mortality?Dust that sings

by Diogenesister in

forum
links

as i am aware a lot of posters are feeling down or grieving the certainties lost when their faith is revealed as nothing but the stories of mortal men...i am posting one of my favourite youtubers, philhellenes who, like the ancients you studied, contemplates that sense of awe that he is indeed fearfully and wonderfully made...and when faced with the inevitability of mortality he imagines the plight of the mayfly...and wonders" would it be cruel to tell an adult mayfly that it only has that afternoon to live...would it still fly as far and as high as it could?might it fly further and higher than usual?or would it forget about it's wings and sit on the water, head bowed, sufficiently traumatised to invent religion?".

we are privileged that after millennia we are some of the first life forms to know exactly how we came to be..and what we are made of ...and if that isnt miraculously awe inspiring,i don't know what is.

Cold Steel

But if offers nothing. And just because one religion is a fraud doesn't mean that all are. The WTBTS villifies other Christian sects, so when people leave it they have nowhere else to go. That's why many become atheists and bitter towards all religion. No matter which belief system one follows, he or she can fall victim to cognitive dissonance, because atheism has as many problems as any other "ism".

That the WTBTS is a manmade church is self apparent. It's not even a church, which is strange because Jesus said, "upon this rock I will build my church." Jesus is the rock, the very stone of Israel. But the GB says very clearly that it's not a church (in fact, you can be excommunicated for even attending a church service). So if it's not a church, it isn't of God. So why does it baptize? And why does it take your money if it isn't divinely established?

Some people, I think, hold God responsible for the WTBTS being a false religion when they need to examine its claims a bit more.

26

THE END is no longer...

by Martini in

jw
friends

...at the tip of my tongue!.

question:.

i know we are not into end time dates anymore.however suppose you are in your.

Cold Steel

...now they are emphasising Jesus' words that "no one knows except [the] Father."

Yes, except that was said two thousand years ago. I suspect the Son now knows when it will be. Amos said that surely the Lord would do nothing save he revealed his secrets to his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

We know that the Lord will raise up two prophets who will minister to the Jews for three years. After that, Gog will overcome the prophets and kill them. Their bodies would lie on the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days. Then they will resurrect in view of their enemies and ascend into heaven to meet the returning Jehovah, or Christ. Thus anyone who knows prophecy and can count will be able to know the time of the Lord's coming. The two prophets may also know (especially if they can count).

So if there are prophets on the earth, they are likely to be privy to the Lord's secrets. If the GB are prophets, then they will know. So far, though, that seems to be a long shot.

26

THE END is no longer...

by Martini in

jw
friends

...at the tip of my tongue!.

question:.

i know we are not into end time dates anymore.however suppose you are in your.

Cold Steel

...I simply say we do not know when the end will come....

By George, I think she has it!

Really, it ruined William Miller and left him totally discredited. It also damaged Ellen G. White and caused the collapse of many other adventist sects. The Lord left clues in the scriptures as a way to tell the seasons, but the Governing Body has unfortunately negated almost all of them. These include the dispersion of Judah following the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the apostasy of the ancient church, its being driven into the wilderness for 1260 years, the reestablishment of Israel by Judah, the building of the third temple, the rise of the Antichrist (Gog), the appearance of two prophets who will stand against him, their destruction and resurrection, and then the return of Jehovah/Jesus to the Mount of Olives. (See Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39, Revelation 12, 14) As one sees these things begin to happen in the Middle East, one can see these events begin to come together; however, if you mislead the people into thinking unrelated events in the United States are fulfillments, then it's a classic case of the blind leading the blind.

24

Just handed in my Disassociation letter

by Thirteenth tribe in

tonight my dl was posted by hand by my husband (a worldly guy).

i had the luxury of being at work distracted whilst he posted it.

i have been baptised for just over 2 years and studied since 2010. i couldn't take it anymore, not just the zealous dislike/disgust for 'people in the world' (this includes my husband and 99% of my family btw) but the obvious.... the investigations into child sexual abuse.

Cold Steel

You said you were baptized two years ago. How did you get into this outfit and when did you first begin thinking it was a bit off?

When people begin making inane comments about the worldly being killed in Armageddon, what happens if someone disagrees and points out, rightly so, that there are many good, decent, honorable people in the world and that Jehovah will likely spare many when he returns? Can you get in trouble for a minor difference with the herd? John states, "For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgement to the Son." (John 5:22) So the Father isn't going to judge nations or people at all. It will be Jesus Christ. (I've never known how the JWs view the "Second Coming." The Old Testament says Jehovah will come in the clouds, but the New Testament says it will be Jesus. Will both the Father and Son come, or will just one of them?) No one else should attempt to judge their fellow man unless they died for the sins of mankind.

34

Gas Pump "Witnessing"....Is this a thing?

by Bob Loblaw in

i've seen this twice now within a month.

a car group hanging out at a gas station.

one of the cult members jumps outs of their car and runs up to a "worldly" gas pumper, arm stretched out, tract in hand, and here comes the juvenile at best question.

Cold Steel

It used to be that the JWs tried getting into your front door. Now they just want to give you a Watchtower and other promo material and bug off before you can say anything. It's a major change in strategy and says a great deal about the group psychology. What about this? Is this an official change in policy at the top or is this simply a spontaneous decision of the membership? The JWs who come by here are usually black, nicely dressed and come in two or three cars. They go from door to door, hand out literature then pile back in their cars and I suppose go to a nice restaurant. But they bring their youngsters, hand you the material and beat it before anyone can ask questions.

BTW, do they have to pay for their publications or does the outfit pay for it?

23

So I had a conversation with an older brother...

by My Name is of No Consequence in

recently, i was speaking with an older brother who is well into his 80's and is a widower.

he explained to me that it is tough getting old and that "nothing works right anymore".

he told me that he was able to get through his 70's with few problems.

Cold Steel

I suppose when the old gent passes, he will be pleasantly surprised if all those folks who have near death experiences are right. If the atheists are right, I guess he won't. If the WTBTS is right, heaven help us all! Still, it could be worse. If the Hindus are right, I'm going to have quite a few cow gods trying to look me up to exact revenge for all those barbecued beef ribs I put away when I was younger. Think of it. Cows running the universe with hosts of singing french fries giving them praise in the heavens.

I had a now deceased friend tell me, "What doesn't hurt doesn't work, and what works, hurts!"

16

Do People Have Spirits? What Do the Early Texts Say?

by Cold Steel in

for years adventist sects, including the jws, have believed that the dead sleep at death and remain non-existent until the resurrection.

its strongest argument seems to be text in the non-escchatological book of ecclesiastes in the old testament.

although a part of the canon of scripture, the book is not written by a prophet, nor is there any prophecy or recognizable doctrine contained therein.

Cold Steel

Nothing at all about 'spirits' has been 'demonstrated' by 'near death studies'. People who are near death have an uncontrolled release of neurotransmitters, resulting in 'experiences' not unlike a vivid dream or a drug-induced hallucination. There is zero evidence that people 'have' 'spirits'.

I hope you have something better to do this fine Saturday evening than sit around answering this thread, Jeffro. We just went for a walk, had a nice dinner, filled the car for less than two bucks a gallon and returned to find three responses from you on this topic.

Now, regarding the above, I reckon it all depends on what one means by "demonstrated" and "evidence." I recall the words of Thomas Jefferson who, after hearing an account of meteorites falling over Connecticut on December 14, 1807, was reported to have said: "I would more easily believe that two Yankee professors would lie than that stones would fall from heaven."

At that time, even the most learned of scholars would have laughed their heads off at the notion that rocks could fall out of the sky, even though there were credible witnesses who claimed otherwise. In like manner, there are numerous witnesses from all religions and walks of life who claim to have left their bodies, seen and conversed with God, angels; seen visions, and we use various criteria to judge the veracity of what they say. The more skeptical someone is in any given area, whether it be the existence of God, the reality of revelation, life after death, Bigfoot, the Big Bang or the theory of evolution, the more resistance will be exerted as part of the cognitive process. And the more invested someone is to a certain way of thinking, the less resistance will be exerted. I've had personal friends that I've known for years and whom I trust. And though none has ever had a near death experience, they have had experiences that fall into the paranormal range.

The question of the paranormal is one, the question of the theological is another. It seems to me that if one is true, so is the other. If there are evil spirits roaming the earth, it stands to reason that it is balanced by good.

You attempt to explain away near death experiences by saying they're the result of the uncontrolled release of neurotransmitters in the brain. This has never been proven to be the cause of near death experiences, especially when brain activity is flat. Also, this theory cannot explain the exchange of intelligence that takes place -- such as learning things one didn't know, but which are true. Some people can recite conversations that were taking place in other rooms between hospital staff or family members, or scenes they had witnessed many miles away that they were later able to recall in detail.

Atheists shut out things they can't understand, or don't want to understand. Then they resort to ad hominem attacks and ridicule in an attempt to discredit it.

16

Do People Have Spirits? What Do the Early Texts Say?

by Cold Steel in

for years adventist sects, including the jws, have believed that the dead sleep at death and remain non-existent until the resurrection.

its strongest argument seems to be text in the non-escchatological book of ecclesiastes in the old testament.

although a part of the canon of scripture, the book is not written by a prophet, nor is there any prophecy or recognizable doctrine contained therein.

Cold Steel

Wouldn't a fundamental problem be, and apologies if this is overly secular as a reading, that there's no real set belief in Judaism which is then transmitted into Christianity?

I don't see Christianity being merely a byproduct of Judaism. If Jesus did not introduce a new understanding of God and true eschatology, then it would not be very useful. At the time Zechariah (father of John the Baptist) saw the angel in the temple, there had not been a living prophet in more than four hundred years. John is considered one of the greatest prophets who ever lived, but we don't have any of his writings or teachings. Jesus, if he was who he claimed to be, would certainly know about the state of the dead and the redemption of the dead.

Because we know so much more about early Christianity today, thanks to the wealth of early texts, we know beyond any doubt that the Christians believed that man has a spirit. I also think it's inescapable that animals have spirits. Add to that the wealth of information in the field of near death studies.

The old adventist view that the soul sleeps comes from but a single verse from a book that teaches no doctrine nor contains any prophecy. And though it's likely authentic, just because it was written by a biblical character doesn't mean it's divinely inspired.

16

Do People Have Spirits? What Do the Early Texts Say?

by Cold Steel in

for years adventist sects, including the jws, have believed that the dead sleep at death and remain non-existent until the resurrection.

its strongest argument seems to be text in the non-escchatological book of ecclesiastes in the old testament.

although a part of the canon of scripture, the book is not written by a prophet, nor is there any prophecy or recognizable doctrine contained therein.

Cold Steel

The interpolation of Greek thought into Christian doctrine was supposed to have happened well after the second century A.D. But the first century Christians clearly believed that people had spirits. Peter wrote:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:18-21)

Who were these spirits in prison? A few verses later, he writes:

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:4-6)

Here Peter talks about the wickedness and lasciviousness of the gentiles, but points out that they, as Christians, are expected to live a higher law in that they know that they'll one day stand before Christ, the judge of the living and the dead. And because of this, the gospel was preached to the spirits of the dead, that they might be judged like those in the flesh (the living), yet exist as those in the spirit (the dead).

In the third century A.D., the great Christian scholar Origen, trying to recall what the apostles taught concerning life after death, said:

After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees."

Interestingly, Origen believed that 1) much of the knowledge that was lost by the first century Christians would remain lost until the times of the "restoration of all things;" 2) that all humans have a pre-mortal existence (a belief that was subsequently condemned by the church as a heresy); and 3) that there are "three celestial levels like the sun, the moon and the stars." (See 1 Corinthians 15). The Greeks believed in reicarnation -- a doctrine conspicuously missing from the Christian church.

Not only does the pseudopigrapghical Apocalypse of Abraham teach that man has a spirit, so does the apocryphal Book of Enoch and the book of 2 Maccabees. The significance of all this is that we have pre-Christian Jewish references, orthodox Christian references, apocryphal Christian references and numerous statements by early church fathers, all teaching that there is a spirit in man. Not one of these teach reincarnation or contained a single reference to Ecclesiastes 9:5 (a book which in my view shouldn't even be in the Bible; neither should the Song of Solomon). My point is that we have so many writings available that if the first century saints had believed in the soul sleeping doctrine, we'd know about it!